Asfi We will be spreading the risk across multiple strike prices based on targeting a specific return and minimizing loss risk.
Lido is another option we're considering doing to acquire more ETH but we need to decide which platform we want to go with and naturally go through governance. We're currently proposing only allocating 5% of our total amount of ETH at any one time to an options platform.
Very bullish on Dopex and its team, so this is good business. The $333k ETH deposit for farming goes into where:
a. SSOV-ETH
b. One of their four farms
c. Or it’s just lending to Dopex
devoltaire ok you have answered above
devoltaire For the pilot it will go into their SSOV, however, we hope to continue to partner with them and use their platform for the multitude of launches to come.
json I think staking ETH will be an easier first step than covered call writing.
Premiums are nice, until the call is exercised.
Without knowing the target APR, strike price range and how the options APR compares to staking APR, I don’t feel comfortable voting yes on this.
Curious to hear what others think.
Asfi We're pursuing both actively, we aligned on what options platform we wanted. We did not align on which staking solution we want to do. These will be separate endeavors. ETH staking is next on the list to align to. Again, this will only take up 5% of the ETH we hold, staking will take up more and requires more consideration in terms of centralization risk and network effect within DeFi protocols. (i.e rocket pool vs Lido)
Additionally, we're close with the Dopex team and there are a lot of things coming up where Olympus will be able to gain treasury growth with very minimal risk. This is just a first step. Lastly, JonesDAO is currently going through incubator and they operate on top of Dopex first, their solution to managed vaults is something that can be enticing for DAOs, a set-it and forget-it approach to options.
Asfi I think the return is secondary while “partner… for the multiple launches to come” is primary
devoltaire I get that. I’m a DPX holder too and love what they’re doing. In my mind staking was always lower risk than covered call writing. But fair enough, worst case this call is exercised and we’ve got a bunch of stablecoin.
Asfi and I fully agree with all your points. They are all factually correct. My takeaway is this is up-only from an overall point of view
Frens, useful to understand how Dopex works here
@Asfi Dopex SSOVs is not a full options platform, the call you write doesnt get exercised for stablecoins
In simple terms, at expiry:
- If price < strike, you earn premium
- If price > strike, you still earn premium but you lose ((price - strike) / price) * numberOfCallsSold
A calculator for all this: https://dopex.revofusion.io
In this instance, if OHM deposit ETH at $3300:
- It will be positive in USD Value if ETH is >$2997 at expiry
- It will be positive in ETH Value if ETH is <$4443 at expiry
Even if ETH price goes up to to $5000, OHM will only lose 0.1 ETH per 1 ETH deposited, and be up a lot in USD Value.
devoltaire to some extent I share the view of asfil. Orca has been shilling dopex and ever since then Ohmies are no longer in the front lines and sorta down and small ups only. Building legs of OHM makes sense and I’m not against the proposal but the pros and cons should be delineated well. I wrote call for certain strike levels and the return was almost zero. The team would need to spend lots of time in managing positions well to avoid losses when options are ITM at expiring and to ensure profits. It would need to be more clear what is there for Ohmies if this is the way to go I think.
While I agree with concerns that this strategy can expose the Treasury to losses (in this case, in ETH terms), I do believe working with some of Dopex team members can help us define a clear risk profile for Olympus and then adapt our call writing strategy based on that. @json I think it should be clarified whether Olympus would have assistance/guidance from Dopex each EPOCH or not ?
More generally, I view this as a first step of a fruitful collaboration with Dopex & their upcoming products release that should present new risk-free yield opportunities for Olympus.
Asfi I have to agree with Asfi on this one. Staking ETH or depositing into vaults that automatically run covered call strategies like Ribbon would be preferable to manually writing strikes ourselves. This proposal turns the Treasury team into more of a hedge fund and I'm worried that we won't have much insight into the process for selecting strike prices. It's one thing to say that we'll be spreading risk across strike prices, but it's not my understanding that we have expertise in this area.
If this proposal passes, I think that Treasury should be responsible for publishing the strategy and justification for selecting strike prices each epoch (1 month). Ideally this would be benchmarked against simply holding ETH and staking returns.
i would be for more for the hedge than yield. olympus team monitors the key data/kpi so we should have an hedge knowing when the market is overextended and options may help bring more stability to our treasury
i'm a big fan of dopex, dope product and amazing team, also community has ohmie like vibe, can recommend the protocol
I agree with everyone that dopex is an awesome and we should explore this diversification of risk, even if it requires more bandwidth than an automated strategy. I agree with @json 's point that we should look more towards partnering with JonesDAO than manually handling the same responsibility in separate compartment. My question is whether we should go forward with this as a stopgap solution that can be phased out if better solutions are available later.
Guys, in general think about Dopex as a solutions provider.
Need active management, alpha extraction? Olympus can do it directly using Dopex or delegate to JonesDAO.
Need an access to hedging, risk-mitigation, risk management solutions that the treasury will need on a case-by-case basis? Access to Dopex can help by a lot.
Need some bespoke products, vaults, ways to access to solutions while not taking excess risks? This also can be built together.
All in all - think about Dopex in broader terms, as a Swiss knife, don't focus on just one way to utilize the protocol.
forgottenname Same here. I wrote far OTM covered calls and its just picking pennies. I feel this proposal is not to be evaluated through the optics of yield but rather the benefits that will accrue as a result of the collaboration initiated through the DAO investment. From what I gather from the comments:
These intangible benefits could offset even a zero P&L from the SSOV-ETH. Also the proposed ETH deployment is not a binary - staking will still happen, so this is just employing ETH on multiple fronts.
Balotelli45 and tex also raised very good points that should be addressed and to add, since this is a pilot deposit, at which point/ under what criteria, do we decide that this is not a suitable product to deploy our treasury assets into?
devoltaire yes I see your point and that’s why i was not against it outright. I believe the reasons you outlined and others too do justify this proposal. I think the community has been a bit defragmented due to many changes happening (forks, migration etc) and it will be now more important to highlight why proposals are good from OHM Dao view point. I have seen (more and more peeps) commenting in the spaces that shilling orcas projects and others were kind of at the expense of ohm. This is crypto defi so things move fast but since OHM is there to stay community should be fed with info why proposals are strengthening OHM so they have incentive to continue to be OHMIes. Anyhow, tl,dr, more explanation and reasoning that it benefits OHM, the better.
I love Dopex but this proposal does shift more towards an active management style as opposed to passive staking and yield farming. Is there already some sort of framework that takes this into account? I may have missed it.
I support the proposal since it's a small amount of ETH but for me it brings up more questions about how to handle it down the line. It's more of a trading than investing approach? JonesDAO could be one of the potential solutions for this issue.
