• Proposal
  • OIP-18: Reward rate framework and reduction

dns

so in essence it actually encourages us little guys to stay in longer according to your proposal on bands…very cool I get that and then it also, addresses the desire for price not to fall too much for the benefit of the bond holders…is this correct assessment…if so then this all makes sense to me…nice piece…

dns

what I say once again is give us time to assess this proposal…there is not immediate deadline…I like what you are posting bro…I believe in this protocol, I am at the bottom DCA'ing in every week…give us all the same op…that seems to be what DNS is proposing…is there a panic on this…until I get more info I will vote no for now, but in principle I agree with the overall idea…is this truly a long term play or will I be driven away?

jdarryl

There is no reason to beat around the bush. Olympus needs to communicate better both in advance and in response to questions.

shadow nakamomo6 If you look at the ranges, we're already past the threshold for the new range (0.1587% - 0.3058%), which is 1m total supply.

I understand if you are busy but it's better to say so than to give a non-answer. The fact that Olympus had a very fast change in rewards before doesn't mean that it was a sound decision.

I felt like there was no point in making my voice heard but here goes. Olympus needs to figure out which market conditions that are relevant to the rewards emissions rate and adjust it dynamically and very slowly. I'm getting the impression that there really is no understanding for the importance of being predictable - OHM is a long term hold so act like it.

Edit: I should add that I'm not a new ohmie. I have studied the protocol and understand the dynamics to a reasonable extent.

    billygoat33

    Nobody said that the distribution is a problem. It is like this in most cryptocurrencies, a free market, where people who have capital to deploy can buy up more than people with less capital. We all had the same opportunity here, I'm sorry you couldn't buy as much as some other people, but that is not on us to fix, but yourself. The value the protocol gets is at least the same from "small" and "big" holders alike.

    I would argue that the large holders actually add more value to the protocol through governance participation. Why? Because people who hold a larger share tend to be more involved and interested in the protocol. They would research and make sure they have a good understanding of proposals, as well as be very vocal in the case that we're steering the ship in the wrong way. This added value comes at the same cost in terms of proportional rewards paid.

    I really want to get this across - this is not something the Policy team would ever consider. Punishing the largest believers and token holders is not something any project would do. Secondly, the individuals proposing this seem to be okay with reaping the benefits of price appreciation when these big investors purchase OHM on the market, or revenue growth when they bond, but do not want to share the rewards proportionally.

    Lastly, it doesn't make sense to me that people advocating this want a "fair distribution" and equality while they are willing to skew the rewards in their favor. What you propose is value destruction and the dilution of the biggest believers in the project.

      nakamomo6

      I understand, we've recognized the need for predictability and have thus come up with this framework. The last reward rate reduction was proposed 2 months ago, and this is a 15% reduction of that rate. I do not think that is a large change by any means, given where where we land after it.

      shadow

      So decentralization is just a buzzword to throw around and not a goal. got it..

        shaydinblue

        There are no barriers to entry, if you want to buy off the market and make it "more decentralized" then by all means go ahead. Decentralization is not just a buzzword for us, and the contributors to this DAO will surely agree with me on that. The forum is meant for meaningful contribution and discussion, so please treat it as such.

        rgscg

        ever since I have been an ohmie only 1 month now I keep reading and listening to ohmies who say price is somewhat irrelevant…has that meme changed now and is price more important…if APY goes down and price jumps aren't we encouraging people to dump…I'd be tempted, but as long as price is going down and APY is going up I am buying more…am I missing something here…? my goal is to build my stack…in the last rate cut people were saying that lower price and lower APY would be better to attract more people…what has happened since I joined we have gone from 6700 ohmies to 10K plus in a month…so it seems lower APY as well as price have brought more people in, but market cap has gone down from $460 Million to$ 304 today…not sure if I understand any of this, but those are the facts…I think it's too early for another rate cut…allow those who are early taking the risk to gain more rewards…the whales deserve what they have received because they took the bigger risk…and those of us who have been paying the piper these high premiums deserve more time to build out our stack…do I honestly know what is the best path not even remotely…but I voted no because I want more time to understand the what for's…I want what's best but so far most of the responses are more or less for it, but not just yet…and the vote is going towards adoption of this proposal…so what does that tell you?

        plutus

        I think most people here agree it will be long term benefit and it seems that in reading all the posts if we took a poll many of are just asking for a little more time…that's not unresonable and I believe the vote would go to "for" in a much higher %…I want to vote for it, but I just got here today the last day…and I still don't have a handle on it…as I stated don't diss on the early adopters, they deserve what they have for the risk…and we newbies, who overwhelmingly love this protocol just want our moment of time…and our voices to be heard…not to much to ask from both sides…

          dns

          Broadly speaking, you will never be able to defeat Sybil attacks.

          Your scenario assumes ohmies won't split their wallets before they reach a higher band, which i can assure you many will. Especially the big wallets, who have the most to lose. It's trivial to make new wallets these days.

          You're a business owner, surely you understand the benefit of lowering taxable income to get into a lower tax bracket? This is exactly what would happen, except it'd be so much easier to do with wallets.

          The result i foresee with your scenario is that the vast majority of OHM sits in wallets in the first band or two. This would completely defeat the purpose of your proposal, while adding unnecessary friction and complexity.

          shaydinblue

          I'd like to understand the points you're making more clearly but first let me say this:

          We are all still very early here! Yes, some were earlier than others and took on huge risk - not many of the presalers actually held onto their OHM because it was scary as well to do in the earlier days and noone knew if this would work. Most large holders bought and held.

          This trajectory was always planned - you cant inflate to infinite. The goal was always to start sky high and end up in a place with minimal inflation where OHM is a relatively stable currency. Today, we're still in a place of super high inflation and will remain so after this cut- as a new holder, you can still greatly "grow your stack."

          To address your concern about price vs supply. Price in and of itself should never be the goal but maintaining a premium over RFV is a goal - the protocol needs to maintain that premium in order to bring in profits to distribute to stakers. If not, we can keep the reward rate high and watch as the premium shrinks and runway disappears such that we will all get fewer rewards in the long run. Its a delicate balance. All holders benefit from this, big and small.

          You say that you recognize that the inflation rate is a problem but that its "baked into the protocols' design." Firstly, this is patently false, see above.

          Irrespective of the reward rate, rewards are limited by RFV in the treasury which is used to mint new OHM - ignore APY and other headline numbers. So lowering the reward rate doesnt change the amount of OHM you will receive over time as an individual holder, it just spreads it out over a couple more months and allows the protocol to grow in a more healthy manner so that the RFV and sum of all future rewards can be greater. Again, this benefits everyone on a pro rata basis.

          If your concerns are more than selfishly trying to grow your bag a little faster now without regard for the protocol, please feel free to DM and I'd be happy to chat further.

          PS - Despite, your false claim about the policy team being OG ohmies, there have been many new ohmies who have joined the policy team recently. Anyone who wants to get involved should apply, demonstrate their understanding of the protocol and interest in helping it grow, and join!

          billygoat33

          If I understand your and @dns arguments well, you're saying that the top % of holders will gain more and more influence over the protocol over time, because you say growth rate is not the same across all levels of sOHM holders. I'm going to sidestep the conversation about distribution of OHM because 1) this isn't a proposal to change that, and 2) I don't really think it's an issue. But I'm seeing a fundamental misunderstanding of how the rewards emission works that needs to be addressed here.

          If we 10x the OHM index, everyone 10x their OHM holdings. 1 becomes 10, 400 becomes 4000, etc. Your mistake is in thinking absolute wallet balances are important. Proportion is what matters here.

          An individual ohmies "value" or % ownership of the protocol therefore remains constant over time. Put another way, every ohmies voting power stays the same over time. Put another another way: (1000 x 10) = (1 x 10) + (1 x 10) + (1 x 10) + … [repeat 1000 times]. The rate of inflation is the same regardless of how evenly distributed OHM is in different wallets.

          That's the core of Olympus and your suggestions would erode that core tenant. Punishing large holders by reducing their voting power over time is a terrible consequence. Remember that individual wallets may not be people - they could be partners or institutional money who we don't want to punish.

          If we hyperinflate, then we all hyperinflate together. Similarly, if reward rates are reduced, we all accumulate more slowly, along the same exact growth rate.

          I firmly say that this proposal provides a solution to effectively and more predictably control inflation.

          Bigbabol

          The voting weight issue isn't unique to Ohm or crypto. In most public companies, voting power is equal to the number of shares you own. Sometimes they're even more restrictive, though, with a special class of voting shares.

          jdarryl

          I agree with your sense that a lot of comments are asking for "just a little more time". On the one hand, I get that. On the other, I understand the motivation behind the proposal is that the treasury versus supply growth problem is not a mirage, and action needs to be taken fairly soon. After all, it's the RFV in the treasury that provides the real value behind Ohm, the value to which the market then applies some premium based upon discounted present value of future earnings. With all this in mind, I posted earlier about "a better approach". I firmly believe that a very slow, steady (daily) algorithmic adjustment of the reward rate is the right solution to the problem that addresses everyone's concerns. I don't think the "stairstep" approach of this and the previous rate adjustment is the right answer, as it will always be controversial with some, and (my guess is) usually cause some price turmoil, too.

            plutus

            yes I did read your suggestion could you post it to me again I would like to read once more…I love that ohmies are in this discussion full power…

            I couldnt make the call due to my primary line of work, however i downloaded the file and listened and it was a good call and made people very relatable. I hope in the future i can actually have a chance to inject. Plutos "your a smart man - great suggestions".

            I do not disagree with cuts, anyone who read my comments will see i actually am saying cuts to inflation are actually not deep enough. The exponential curve remains exponential. I am not being a hypocrite as my position resides on the exponential end and from the start i never understood how i could possibly attain 14 million dollars based on my position after only one years investment - purely unsustainable. But i love the protocol and vision and that is why i advocated so fiercely for additional cuts.

            However, i do think a proper balance of salesmenship, marketing and optics has to be maintained to protect the newer investors with very small "bags" from the deeper on the curve investors. That is my secondary argument to protect the integrity of the message our community put forth to the crypto community as a whole that served as a rally cry. Look, 7k, 6k, even 3k apy is better then ANYTHING else in crypto, im a yield hound i know ive checked. I only invest in high yield. Had i found OHM when it first began i would have absolutely invested. If i used twitter (i dont) i would have found ohm earlier in the game. Im invested in quite a few riskier apy projects right now, i like to catch them when they need money the most because thats when they "need my money and will pay me for it". I was invested in zerogoki when the apy was like 978,000% and no thats not an exaggeration - its not their anymore is the point, now it sits at about 13,000% apy. APYs come down as is neccesary, and so anyone that thought i advocated against the drop, incorrect. I am also OCD on efficiency which makes me good in business. So i looked at where the cuts were most needed and could still benefit growth. Thats where my idea came from. If you got to fire people you start with the highest paid, least effective - typically thats the person no one likes so it doesnt hurt morale. My idea addressed the cuts where they should start, highest paid least beneficial by means of the amount of sell pressure and excess volume the higher end of the spectrum accumulates. All that supply produced cant be reduced once minted and the higher end of the curve produces ALOT of supply.

            Anyway, i enjoyed the call, while i still cannot support the OIP-18, i do hope this message can at least reassure folks that OHM still has some of the best yield out their. Also, i kept the discussion in here out of respect to the community. I did not want this perceived as FUD or disinformation so i gathered the people most likely to be a bit more serious about the protocol would debate here vs in the open discord where its a free for all of FUD, open interest and opportunists. But thats my final piece on OIP-18, I will crawl back under a rock until their is another debate to be had. Cheers and again great call!

            shadow

            1. I am saying their is a disproportionate amount of selling happening amongst large holders of OHM and have continually asked for anyone to prove me wrong with hard data.
            2. You are making an assumption as to my demographic within the distribution.
            3. I did not have "the same opportunity" as you - nor does anyone that comes to the project after inception; however, I did find my way here and have been invested.
            4. I sincerely hope you think "small" Ohmies can bring as much or more value to this project than "big" Ohmies as your response reads otherwise. Your work on Dune, answers in chat, and overall dedication to this project was one of the original attractions for me because this is a very different community. Please don't insinuate that someone with the smallest amount of OHM can't be as valuable or a bigger believer in the project than someone with the most - though you are welcome to your opinion if that is your belief.
            5. @abipup I understand hyper-inflation affects all holders the same, sorry if my posts seem otherwise.
            6. Yes, I also understand you can't tax the rich as they will adjust their strategy. If no one ever presents dissenting opinions or alternate solutions the road often leads nowhere.
            7. Yes, I am keenly aware that not all of the community are single real persons. Losing Arondight and others definitely does not help market price stability. Speaking of which has policy though about deepening the pools, though that's an exit balance dance as well.
            8. What I really wanted was a discussion about the income side of the equation which was barely addressed on the community call. At the start it was mentioned @abipup had analytics to share about the current situation - that never happened. Inflation must be reduced - no argument, we are discussing best methods - and must be equally applied throughout the distribution. I would still love to see data that shows correlation of "reducing rates is bullish" versus potential environmental meta correlation. Anyhow, inflation adjustments are just prolonging a slow death without increase of revenue. It seems the policy has lots of ongoing projects to address this issue, but should consider being more forth coming. Not everyone is on the policy team, nor can most spend their day in Discord, but an ever increasing number of people, from all walks of life, are finding Olympus - they need to be encouraged to stay and not all will be okay with "well the jigga brains said so".

            I personally think both suggestions are great, decreasing apy will lead to healthier growth, framework will add much needed predictability … which is my biggest concern here. If you would come here and say, we wanna reduce the APY, 4 weeks from now (for example) during 14 days perioed, I would be totally fine with that. You've came here "from the sky", proposed this thing with immediate action after the vote will be accepted, I don't like this approach :-) Should be served better next time.

            Only whales and presale buyers will benefit from that change, they got a big headstart . For regular people who bought recently, especially at ath, its a very bad change. But of course whales will push the vote through , they have the most tokens

              shadow

              shadow

              I have another idea.

              1. Establish a desired runway length - say 365 days
              2. Adjust the APY dynamically to maintain the runway length

              Problems Solved:
              1. No exponential inflation
              2. Self regulating rather than arbitrary.